Really, I'm probably the last person who should really speak about ethics. (He lies, he cheats, he uses dirty tactics, he's just not a very good person in some regards,) But the thing with ethics is that it doesn't work when it's absolute.
Let's say we decide to pay for a life with a life. What if Virid had killed in self defense? Or on accident? What if he was forced to by someone else? Or compelled against his will like some people thought. Do we charge them all equally? Or do we make allowances?
We spent the whole day trying to find the killer. That's all fine and definitely the first thing that needs to be done. But now that we know, what do we do assuming we have any say?
I'm sure we'll end up paying a life for a life. [ her voice is resolute. she isn't sure but she'll stand true to this opinion. ] Calling it a "removal" is just cowardice to face the reality.
[ she takes a moment to mull over the scenarios that claude presented to her. they're all things that are discussed time and time again, especially in trying to figure out how to rightfully punish someone. ]
But as you've pointed out—what would we do in a situation where they were coerced into killed someone? Forced to do it because of an outstanding circumstance?
[ sighs. ]
I don't think we have the luxury here to look at the gray. I feel as though the Realm wants to look at things in the black and white. An eye for an eye—to fully punish those who have killed without mercy. [ a beat as she tilts her head to a side. ] Seems a bit cruel, don't you think?
Right. I'm not feeling too optimistic about what "removal" means here.
(It looks like he and Izumo are on the same page though and he nods,)
We'll find out tomorrow but assuming the worst for tomorrow, what will we do if we ever run into a situation like that? Would you be able to send someone like that to whatever fate awaits them? Of course, we can't ask someone else to take their place.
(So what do they do?)
You know what they say, the problem with an eye for an eye is that everyone goes blind eventually.
(He's quiet for a moment. Is it cruel? Of course it is.)
There are people here who would be willing to take another's place.
[ that will be her answer. would izumo give her life for someone else? hmm. who knows. still she'll continue with it because she'll want to put it out there in case anyone has missed it. ]
If you haven't noticed, the idea of throwing your life away for something noble was rather popular. [ hikaru, raven, and whoever else wanted to jump up and raise their hands to be voted for during the trial. honestly, izumo had none of it and kept her opinion to herself. until, now anyway. ] We have a number of people here like to make promises about how things are going to get better and how to fix problems without knowing where to start.
[ she'll look at claude for some of. he isn't exactly the first name on her list for this, but, well... ]
The longer we spend here and the closer we get to each other, it'll only get worse.
(He says it quickly, without a second thought. It's something he believes almost absolutely and he doesn't have to think anymore about it.)
There's nothing noble about dying. If you want to do something truly noble then you keep living and fighting for something noble. Once you die, it's over.
(He also doesn't mind one bit when she looks at him. If anything, he makes a point to stare right back at her, eyes direct and unwavering. He doesn't have to say anything. He meant what he said.)
And when things get worse, how will we respond? I think... that's the thing I want to know.
[ she hums thoughtfully at claude's immediate answer and makes an adjustment on her opinion of him some. ]
I can't say for sure, but I would guess the emotions would range from desperation to resolution. I think enough of us will still try to stand tall through it all, but not without being on the verge of crumbling from the weight of it all.
[ she's familiar with the types of people who always try to do everything "right" for others and has watched where that has all lead them. and if claude will continue to meet her in the eye then she'll do the same. ]
People have their limitations. No one can do everything.
(Oh, no. That last part gets him to quirk his mouth into a small smile and he looks away, raising a hand to his mouth to hide it. He sounds terribly amused as he speaks,)
There was a time when I would have disagreed with you but but you're right. Everyone has their limits, even incredible people.
(And he isn't talking about himself, either.)
While we're working together, we should be careful not to push anyone too far.
[ claude might find it amusing but izumo will simply shake her head. she can't tell if this conversation is including herself as part of the collective whole (it should), but there is a correction she'd like to make. ]
It's less about being careful not to push anyone than it is to be aware of people when they go too far.
[ she's aware of certain people (person) who will run themselves down without help, after all. ]
Those kind of people hardly take care of themselves.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
also look, sometimes you have things to say but want to start off with this as your opener. ]
And you stand by with what you were taught?
[ does izumo agree? does she not?? :thinking: ]
no subject
(Which is neither a yes or a no. Hmm.)
Really, I'm probably the last person who should really speak about ethics. (He lies, he cheats, he uses dirty tactics, he's just not a very good person in some regards,) But the thing with ethics is that it doesn't work when it's absolute.
Let's say we decide to pay for a life with a life. What if Virid had killed in self defense? Or on accident? What if he was forced to by someone else? Or compelled against his will like some people thought. Do we charge them all equally? Or do we make allowances?
We spent the whole day trying to find the killer. That's all fine and definitely the first thing that needs to be done. But now that we know, what do we do assuming we have any say?
no subject
[ she takes a moment to mull over the scenarios that claude presented to her. they're all things that are discussed time and time again, especially in trying to figure out how to rightfully punish someone. ]
But as you've pointed out—what would we do in a situation where they were coerced into killed someone? Forced to do it because of an outstanding circumstance?
[ sighs. ]
I don't think we have the luxury here to look at the gray. I feel as though the Realm wants to look at things in the black and white. An eye for an eye—to fully punish those who have killed without mercy. [ a beat as she tilts her head to a side. ] Seems a bit cruel, don't you think?
no subject
(It looks like he and Izumo are on the same page though and he nods,)
We'll find out tomorrow but assuming the worst for tomorrow, what will we do if we ever run into a situation like that? Would you be able to send someone like that to whatever fate awaits them? Of course, we can't ask someone else to take their place.
(So what do they do?)
You know what they say, the problem with an eye for an eye is that everyone goes blind eventually.
(He's quiet for a moment. Is it cruel? Of course it is.)
All of it is cruel.
(Not a "bit." It just is.)
no subject
[ that will be her answer. would izumo give her life for someone else? hmm. who knows. still she'll continue with it because she'll want to put it out there in case anyone has missed it. ]
If you haven't noticed, the idea of throwing your life away for something noble was rather popular. [ hikaru, raven, and whoever else wanted to jump up and raise their hands to be voted for during the trial. honestly, izumo had none of it and kept her opinion to herself. until, now anyway. ] We have a number of people here like to make promises about how things are going to get better and how to fix problems without knowing where to start.
[ she'll look at claude for some of. he isn't exactly the first name on her list for this, but, well... ]
The longer we spend here and the closer we get to each other, it'll only get worse.
no subject
(He says it quickly, without a second thought. It's something he believes almost absolutely and he doesn't have to think anymore about it.)
There's nothing noble about dying. If you want to do something truly noble then you keep living and fighting for something noble. Once you die, it's over.
(He also doesn't mind one bit when she looks at him. If anything, he makes a point to stare right back at her, eyes direct and unwavering. He doesn't have to say anything. He meant what he said.)
And when things get worse, how will we respond? I think... that's the thing I want to know.
no subject
I can't say for sure, but I would guess the emotions would range from desperation to resolution. I think enough of us will still try to stand tall through it all, but not without being on the verge of crumbling from the weight of it all.
[ she's familiar with the types of people who always try to do everything "right" for others and has watched where that has all lead them. and if claude will continue to meet her in the eye then she'll do the same. ]
People have their limitations. No one can do everything.
no subject
There was a time when I would have disagreed with you but but you're right. Everyone has their limits, even incredible people.
(And he isn't talking about himself, either.)
While we're working together, we should be careful not to push anyone too far.
no subject
It's less about being careful not to push anyone than it is to be aware of people when they go too far.
[ she's aware of certain people (person) who will run themselves down without help, after all. ]
Those kind of people hardly take care of themselves.